[UchihaNoRiku]

- 28 Apr 2016 14:02 #172653 Okay, so apparently my last post with this title was misunderstood, or perhaps it just wasn't read all the way, I don't know. But I wanna make sure I make my words a bit more clear this time around so its not misconstrued.

[ Perhaps certain pokemon can help with more than just being a mount. Like... maybe Water pokemon can help water gardens... or pokemon like Growlithe and Meowth could bring random items. Maybe Abra could teleport you home, or to certain points you've been to that you have it remember... like how the Map mods used to work with waypoints? ]

This was the previous post I had mentioned, but I wanna better explain what I said, since my topic was locked before I was even able to explain to those who posted on it that I wasn't talking about External Moves or moves or any sort.

What I'm talking about is a skill, not a move.

Basically, Abra can only bring you to where you last healed, as per detailed by the video game series. But what if instead of just having it teleport you to the last healing station, you could right click on it, and it opens a list of waypoints?

This list is set up so that you can either add a new one, or click on one and Abra returns you to it. This makes it a lot simpler to travel to an important location, even in singleplayer.

I'm sure those like myself who play in single player, who are frustrated because we no longer have the minimaps we can use would appreciate this so you don't need to worry about losing your home location.


Or you could have a certain item which makes it where when you right click the pokemon, when holding it, it will allow those certain skills to be available. That way, in case you're facing and clicking on a mount, it won't cancel it out.

You could have Meowth right clicked on, while underground and maybe it leads you to random useful ores. It doesn't need to be specific ores, it could just be programmed to find ores as a whole, and perhaps have a random chance rate of finding the more rare ones first over others in the area.

While on the surface, it could help you find loot nearby. Which would feel like a useful skill, and would be a rather helpful pokemon to have. While Meowth is already said in one of its pokedex entries, 'Adores round objects. It wanders the streets on a nightly basis to look for dropped loose change.'

This info could be useful for the game itself.

Water pokemon, or some of them, could also be useful in the case of watering any garden that needs to be watered, which would make it a lot easier and make it really start to feel more like you're working hand in hand with your pokemon.

Its just something I felt would be of some help for players and make their time more fun and easier, as well as to feel like they are closer to being real trainers, since living with pokemon is more than just battling, breeding, and traveling to many.

If its a disliked idea, I understand. I know this could be a tricky thing with coding. I just wanted to make sure my earlier post was understood since I had no chance at all to tell those who posted on it what I actually meant since they assumed I was talking about moves, rather than skills.

Thank you for your time, and for looking this over. If it gets denied, I won't bring this up again.

[SKyTheThunder]

- 28 Apr 2016 15:53 #172666 It is not that your ideas were misunderstood, most things you suggest simply already exist in one way or another.

Watering gardens (= speed up plant growth): Wailmer Pail; Leaf Stone Tools; maybe a possibility for an external move
Finding items: Forage; Pickup; Itemfinder; no dedicated option to find ores yet, but mining with Dig usually reveals more than enough
Fast travel to certain locations: Already suggested for Fly - And you can easily add any of the map mods in single player.

Also the external moves system is a way to balance the abilities. Why would someone who chooses a Water starter (or Grass - I think that makes more sense) basically get free food from the start while someone who has a fire starter actually needs to put some effort into his farm? Or you want a Pokemon that can dig tunnels and cut down trees? You'll have to sacrifice two attack slots for those ultraconvenient abilities. It just makes things fair.

[UchihaNoRiku]

- 28 Apr 2016 16:05 #172669 Most server allow you to fly without the use of the move, and for the most part in single player you don't 'need' to have them in the move pool to use Fly or Surf. And in regular game mode, when not on a server, Cut isn't really a big deal.

I don't get your logic of 'extra food' from picking a grass type though... it could easily have some other skill. And really, that wouldn't even be the first thing I'd think of for that.

People can always catch pokemon in the wild for certain things anyway, and if you go by servers, most people get balls up front to use to catch things, and Grass are the most common seen. So I don't really get this aspect of 'fair' when it comes to picking one over the other.

I personally only normally use between Fire and Dark types, but if its for reasons of usefulness, I'd probably still keep a utility based pokemon if its useful for other stuff.

Also... if you have a pokemon that can help you water stuff, its more useful then to lug around a can with you, and can be more help than the fact with a can you need to craft it. Which is all well and good when you need it, but you can only use it one time a day.

The whole point of the pokemon using it is convenience as well as to feel more like you'r actually working side by side with your pokemon. And while Forge is all well and good its for seeking stuff from a block you point at.

The idea I'm thinking of would be you let the pokemon wander away from you to actually lead you to loot and ores within a certain radius, and you follow them. It makes it feel like more of an adventure.

And theres a difference between 'fast travel' and marking a location you don't want to lose track of.

I apologize if this comes off offensive, but I feel you're trying to compare an apple and a chocolate bar... both things you eat, but the concept and structure is different.

[SKyTheThunder]

- 29 Apr 2016 03:58 #172704 Riding a Pokémon is usually possible without the move, yes (unless specified in the config). What I meant was the external move Fly though...
And Cut and Dig are a big deal for resource gathering. You can cut down a tree in a single press of a button and even get double the wood...

The only way "watering gardens" can be implemented is through the Bone Meal effect, accelerating plants' growth. That actually makes more sense on a grass type than a water type since these are the most closely connected to plant life.
And when you can just from the very start spam your "skill" (that you got for free on your starter) to instantly grow crops while someone who picked another starter can't (simply because he picked the "wrong" starter) that's a severe imbalance.

Also don't measure the mod on what servers do. It needs to be fair even in basic settings. Ice Plains, Savanna, Desert, Mesa... They're all viable start biomes, but none of these spawn Grass types. And even in other biomes - if there isn't some nice server owner who just gifts you some Balls you have to go farm them. And not starving in the process is a benefit too...

And theres a difference between 'fast travel' and marking a location you don't want to lose track of.

There's enough map mods out there already. You can just install one of them beside Pixelmon. No need for the mod to create its own system for that.


I'm sorry, but that's how game balancing works. You can't just hand out free apples and chocolate bars (to stay true to your metaphor ). Everything needs to have its price or it becomes too easy; and thus boring. You wouldn't hand players a weapon that can one-hit the final boss - at least not as long as obtaining it is easier than beating the boss with traditional means.
Sure, according to Pokédex and Series your Onix could just burrow underground and get you a bunch of diamonds. But where's the challenge in that? Overcoming challenges is fun and fun is what keeps people playing a game.
That's why External Moves aren't free. They allow you to accomplish things way faster, way easier. But for a trade-off...

[UchihaNoRiku]

- 29 Apr 2016 05:31 #172705 I wasn't actually meaning to measure the mod as per servers since I do play on single player too. I believe I even mentioned single player and that I play on that...

Though as said, I only train Fire and Dark types... so I myself don't ever pick Grass types in the start anyway. Yet if you turn on the bonus box and allow cheats... you can pretty much get spare food on that so... like I said, I don't fully grasp the unfairness...

And really, I only suggested this because of a mix of things...

1. I was speaking with follow players on a few servers about this way back before things got as advanced as it is, and we all were swooning over the idea. Its something I've been thinking would be good for a few years, and really these were just a few examples, and... to be fair... I didn't even come up with the insta-food example... that was something you mentioned. I said watering for water types. Which... is something thats not meant as in like the bone mean effect... I meant actual watering... like... if the ground is damp when you plant crops and its taking awhile for it to absorb the water, the pokemon auto-waters all the plowed patches. Or maybe helps splash water on lava... something like that.

2. The Abra thing was an example I used because as I said... theres no minimaps you can use anymore thats updated and when playing on single player it can be rather stressing trying to move away from home and not sure if you'll get back. There used to be side mods that could help but the creators were never kept up with.

This is one of the reasons I said it feels like you're not really paying mind to what I'm actually saying... You're arguing with me over an example that you came up with... and then saying its not fair to others. And really... in single player you can get around that anyway as said... and if on a server... they pretty much turn off hunger for most and those that don't give you food so... Yeah, I really don't get what the argument is about.

Right now I feel like a child being scolded for looking at a cookie after just eating one, and being accused of being greedy for taking another when I never reached for it.

The stuff I'd say would be good skills wouldn't really be hand-outs so much... more the idea was so that all the pokemon, not just a few... would have some form of special skill which matched the pokemon or their details mentioned in the pokedex... but small things that aren't based around attacks, but the pokemon themselves. Stuff that could help people without handing stuff out.

Like if a Meowth found Loot... it would be something only in a certain radius... like something already within the area near the player, not like they'd be trekking a super long way away. Or if it found an ore it would be something within the area... so its something just to make it a little easier without the pokemon leading them a super long distance just to hand them an item.

I like the move based skills they have, I just thought some things would be good like that so it could feel closer to actually interacting with the pokemon...

And like I said, it could be only unlocked via crafting an item that allows the use of them. Like... I guess a good example being that one mod that turns Minecraft into a dating sim... but in order to do it, you first need to make some wand or the monsters still attack you like normal.

And maybe to make this tool, the stuff you need to make it is rare... like diamonds or something...

Also, on a note to the Onix thing... rather than that, you could just use it like a pick or shovel... like it just speed digs, like a drill for a certain duration... and maybe in between when you use the abilities, theres a two or three minute cool down or something. Something not TOO long where it becomes annoying, but something where they also can't spam it like crazy.

Also, as a personal opinion note on the 'tradeoff external move thing'... while I like them, I also felt the moves in the handheld games like Fly and Cut were annoying, because it hinders your battle moves because you end up depending on these extra moves just to progress... so its kinda the same to me if you have a pokemon you have to 'trade off' for just to use some cool abilities. It becomes.. 'Do I wanna have good moves, or do cool things?' and that isn't really fun...

But on the side, I still feel its cool to have say... Charizard blast fire onto some wood with its Flamethrower... so its... kinda a teeter totter thing in that area. But I do feel some things should just be skills.

I don't mind if you dislike my idea though... bu if its alright, if you're going to dismiss it, could I ask you to focus on what I've said, rather than your own examples? Otherwise the subject feels like its going off what I suggested and is going to a totally different subject... and then it just feels awkward and I feel confused on what you're coming down on me for...

[MoeBoy76]

- 29 Apr 2016 08:21 #172711 JourneyMap, VoxelMap and Xaero's minimap all work fine? you can set waypoints and teleport in all of them (assuming for Xaero's), so your first point is pointless

[SKyTheThunder]

- 29 Apr 2016 10:14 #172720 You're saying that you don't measure per servers but use arguments like "servers give you food or turn off hunger so your argument is invalid." Sorry, that's not how it works. A game needs to balance all possible approaches. So if someone want's to play without Bonus Chest and Cheats he shouldn't run into imbalances someone who uses them wouldn't. The starter choice should really only be about preference, not about usefulness. Which for example is why Charmander and other fire starters don't emit light despite their flames - because the others don't either.
You only using a certain type of Pokémon isn't a viable argument either. Just because it doesn't affect you doesn't mean there isn't a problem. Other people play it in other ways. Each way should be just as viable as the next.

On "1.":
That is the reason external moves were implemented. They give Pokémon a use outside of battles, as companions.
The example with the fast growing was the only way I understood your "watering gardens". That it could also mean turning Farmland into hydrated Farmland completely slipped my mind. Mostly because with the easy method of placing a block of water next to it and the abundance of water I didn't think anyone would want to water it manually. But to each his own...

On "2.":

theres no minimaps you can use anymore thats updated and when playing on single player it can be rather stressing trying to move away from home and not sure if you'll get back. There used to be side mods that could help but the creators were never kept up with.

As I stated multiple times there are plenty of minimap mods that are compatible with 1.8.9. I personally use JourneyMap (in single player) and it works just fine and does exactly what you're suggesting - no need for Pixelmon to add their own version.

The stuff I'd say would be good skills wouldn't really be hand-outs so much... more the idea was so that all the pokemon, not just a few... would have some form of special skill which matched the pokemon or their details mentioned in the pokedex... but small things that aren't based around attacks, but the pokemon themselves. Stuff that could help people without handing stuff out.

Not so much hand outs but other aspects that overthrow the balancing of the game. A Pokémon's usefullness is mainly determined by its typing and stats. With the right method (like EV training, selective breeding), by teaching it certain moves and giving it a certain item you can turn a mediocre Pokémon into a decent addition to your team.
If you now add other things to the mix it makes certain Pokémon far more useful than others. We can already see this with riding: Many people rush for flying mounts. Their ability makes them that much more attractive. Now what would happen if they had more "free" abilities? There would be a select few Pokémon that can just use almost all "skills" and thus are sought after by almost any trainer.
External moves counter that: Sure, your Flygon could learn Dig, Fly, Rock Smash and something like Flamethrower to unlock Light Fire. But that makes it mostly useless in a fight, so having two or three other Pokémon that each have some of these, but are overall pretty viable fighters is just as good of a strategy.
Basically: Restricting access to a resource allows for more creative use of it. That's a basic rule in game design. Solving an annoying puzzle is ultimately more fun than if that puzzle hadn't existed in the first place. Same with min/maxing your team's abilities.


What this boils down to: The changes you propose are too severe and wouldn't be fun for most people.
I tried giving examples as to why that wouldn't be a good idea, but it's kind of hard because you talk about so many different aspects at once... If I sound like I'm lecturing you I am sorry. I don't mean to.
If you have specific aspects you'd like to suggest (like the external move to find Ore/PokéLoot) you're better off describing it and fleshing it out in a separate thread. That makes it easier for everyone to understand and give feedback. Like what exactly do you want to happen when - and why would we want it? These long and unspecific posts are hard to follow and feature so many ideas that it becomes very hard to find the actual suggestion behind all those words.

[UchihaNoRiku]

- 30 Apr 2016 02:08 #172785 [Just to note, I reply as I read, so I apologize if I repeat or respond to anything already mentioned in your post. Its too much to read, then remember all of, then reply to. So I'll just be typing as I read.]

@Moe
Yeah~. I loved those maps, but unfortunately those were ones I meant that didn't upgrade. I looked but couldn't find any for any of the updated Pixelmon versions, they kinda cut off after awhile. If you could get a link to downloads that aren't scam links(ones that claim they go for a certain update but either don't download anything or download only lower versions), I'd love to use'em~.

My first point was that they exist but not for the updated ones. I've seen sites that claim they do, but then actually don't.. I spent five hours one day looking for one for the most recent updates, and it claimed it existed and didn't.


@SKy
Again... you keep only picking and choosing what I say and then throwing in stuff... please stop doing that. I don't mind polite debates, or discussions, but please... PLEASE stop doing that.

I mentioned BOTH servers AND Singleplayer, not just one or the other... In fact I mentioned both multiple times. If you wanna speak on what you dislike I don't mind, but right now it feels more like you're just picking and choosing and putting things in to aggravate me until I just stop responding rather than saying what you dislike in what I have actually said and how I actually said it.

How would you feel if you said, 'I like to drink soda at the beach, and relax with friends.' and then someone else was like, 'So what you said was you like to throw sodas on your friends and then go swimming.' Wouldn't that start to aggravate you?

In fact... after saying I measure based on servers, you then quoted something I said about Singleplayer... and you're still going off the starters going based on the act of 'usefulness'. I said I'd catch a pokemon that was useful for its skills... and you just said yourself, everyone plays different.

I mean... technically, if someone wanted to pick a pokemon just for the sake of gaining leverage... they'd do it weather they had the skills or not... and a good chunk of those that would do that would have cheats on anyway...

But really... if you wanna go on roundabout fairness in starters... I could argue not all starters can even be used as mounts... which if you wanna say 'because the flame doesn't light up is because none of the other pokemon light up either'... if by that sense, shouldn't every single starter be a mount? I mean... people could decide not to pick one because they can't ride it...

In fact, only Charizard flies of all the starters, and many people pick it because of that reason. I myself like that its useful because it flies, but even if it didn't, I'd pick it because I like Charizard most of the starters. So really it doesn't fit the argument...

Also, I don't get why any pokemon that doesn't have fire or electricity coming from somewhere on them would need to glow anyway. Can you imagine a glowing Skitty? I mean, really, what would be the point? It would be like a Squirtle using the Flamethrower External Move... it wouldn't make sense...

Also, I don't see how it would hinder anyone from playing the way they still wanna play. If they aren't using the item like I suggested they wouldn't be able to access it anyway so... I wanna say, 'If on single player they won't really have the option to use the skills right off the bat anyway, and only servers would probably MAYBE give it out, but it would be up to them', but I don't really wanna hear, 'You can't go based on servers' and you take only half of what I say again... so... I'll just leave it with the previous mentioned before that...

On the maps thing... I only found three. Zan's, Rini or ehatever his name is... and one other that I can't remember the name is because its early morning here and my brain is not remembering very well on what the last was... I think it might've been the one Moe mentioned... uh... Xaero's. But as said, I looked all over. Those were the only ones my searches would show...

For the record, if any of the ones you mentioned work, I would love to try them, but it was only part of the examples... not the full out. Though for the record, I still think it would be good to have one specifically for pixelmon. I figured Abra or other teleporting pokemon would be best because that way they do more than bring you to the last place you healed... but really even if a Map side mod with waypoints was made specifically for Pixelmon, that functioned with it, and maybe even utilized it to where it tracks pokemon in certain colors, and maybe legends in others, that would be cool, since when legends spawn its such a hassle figuring out where they are even if you're in the area... That way you guys have your own just for that and don't need to rely on a map meant for normal mobs, which--...you know what, I'm just gonna make another suggestion for that one in a second. Back to the subject.

Anyway, the perspective was to make things more interactive than just move based interactions which... if you don't have any of the moves, all you can do is forage all day... so its not exactly interactive as it is, you need to choose if you wanna be interactive or have the moves you want.

The usefulness of any pokemon could be useful. If I had a few days, I could even make a list of about 20 pokemon that I could give as examples of how any of them could be useful... and even if its minor... if its not move-based, and can be utilized on its own to help the player in some form, its useful.

And yes, people do use flying mounts more, but really people like any mounts. Flying ones just happen to be more useful because they can fly over water, and you can scope out areas to check for whatever you need to check for. But it doesn't make them neglect other pokemon either, they just normally have at least one flying pokemon either always with them, or in their PC for when they need it.

No one is really going to neglect their favorites just because one has something cooler than another. A person that really feels a pokemon is one of their favorites isn't going to stop using them because another pokemon does something new, cool, or useful.

If you think about it, if people really believed that, then pokemon that got turned into megas would be the one thing anyone has... ever.... at all... in the entire party... Its true, you can only use one mega at a time, but it won't stop someone who has multiple in their team because they either like megas or they find the ones in their teams to be their favorites.

People will do what they do, and because everyone plays different, they still will.

Also, to be fair... my first post was submitted and locked within less than 24 hours, but didn't break any rules. How can one person speak for everyone? My post has no Likes yes, but also no Dislikes. No ones even had time to decide if they like or dislike it, for someone to claim my ideas, 'would not be fun for anyone at all'.

Also, I DID give some examples. Thats whats frustrating. Because rather than any of what I said being commented and reviewed in the first post, I got 'We already have External Moves, thank you bye~!' which had nothing to do with what was posted. Again... what we've discussed was mostly brought about because you kept throwing outside examples in that I never mentioned. Of course it would be confusing when instead of responding to what I said, I was forced to explain myself because the response had nothing to do with what I said...

Of course at this point, because this thing turned into this big conflicting discussion, I can almost garentee no one will hit Like or Dislike under the sheer principal this forum post has become uncomfortable and no one wants ANY of that.

In fact, the only people who will want to even comment, will likely be attacking me because I decided to actually hold this discussion with you, which by default just makes ME look bad. The only reason I even bothered to do it, is to straighten up my idea so I could help you understand what I was talking about, in as calm and polite a way as possible.

Also on a side note, yeah, I know... water blocks can help... more to myself, I just get annoyed if I make a really big garden and it takes forever to get the soil wet so it can be used. There were times it took hours and I don't have hours to just sit and stare at dirt... I like to do more with my time on the game than wait for my dirt to wet so I can plant.

Like I said... small helpful things...

[MoeBoy76]

- 30 Apr 2016 20:45 #172852 Here are the links to the official downloads pages for the minimaps i previously listed, all of which have 1.8-1.9:
VoxelMap (formerly Zan's Minimap, requires LiteLoader): http://minecraft.curseforge.com/projects/voxelmap/files
JourneyMap: http://minecraft.curseforge.com/project ... 2274/files
Xaeros's Minimap: http://www.minecraft-downloads.com/xaer ... nloadpage/

[UchihaNoRiku]

- 30 Apr 2016 20:48 #172855 Thanks Moe. Which of them seems like the better 1.8.9 version?